Monday, 2 November 2009

Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil

Our debut in South America! Due to a characteristic Slotovino cock-up we failed to set foot in Chile this time but will remedy the omission hopefully next May.

From Buenos Aires, Colonia and the Montevideo airport duty free in Uruguay and Rio de Janeiro plus a side-trip to Sao Paolo in Brazil we dipped into this vast continent’s wine scene. According to Christopher Fielden’s ‘The Wines of Argentina, Chile and Latin America’ we need also to case Bolivia, Cuba, Mexico, Paraguay, Peru and Venuzuela. Nothing if not intrepid in our search for diversity, we might visit these countries too one day.

Argentina


Varietal choice was more drastically limited here even than in the USA with not only Malbec but Malbec from Mendoza dominating the Argentinian lists. Of course this reflects the overwhelming position of Mendoza as Argentina’s biggest wine-producing area but can it be that consumers want to spend their entire lives comparing different wines from the same grape in one single area, however large?


In ‘Decanter’s’ supplement on Argentina 2009, admittedly a ‘Sponsored Guide’, our hopes had been raised by mention of other areas such as Salta and Patagonia with attempts to differentiate parts of Mendoza such as the Uco, Pedernel and Famatina valleys, talk of lighter unoaked Malbecs, and mention of Bonarda, Pinot Noir, Syrah, Cabernet Sauvignon, Tempranillo, Merlot and Torrontes and even Friulano as well as Chardonnay and Sauvignon Blanc in the whites the reality was overwhelmingly the familiar powerful style of Malbec from Mendoza.

It was therefore interesting to read in the 2003 edition of Fielden that ‘Argentina is richly endowed with possibilities, but seems to have chosen the Malbec for red wines…’ What seemed in 2003 is in 2009 almost a hegemony.

So putting this aside we tried to seek out what else might be on offer. Bonarda was an interesting possibility especially on learning from Fielden that (at least in 2003) ‘this is the most widely planted quality grape variety in Argentina.’ He goes on to say that ‘there is surprisingly little information about it. One of the reasons for this is that many of the vines are very old and there is some confusion as to what they really are. There is no doubt that there has been some inter-mingling with the Barbera, which gives a higher class of wine.’ We read elsewhere that Bonarda in Argentina is not the Bonarda Oltrepo Pavese which is actually Croatina, nor even the Bonarda Piemontese or even Novarese but Corbeau, aka Douce Noire, a southern French variety or even Charbono. Curiouser and curiouser, but all the more interesting for that. Bonarda now only the second most planted quality variety in Argentina after, you have guessed it, Malbec. It was always more frequently found in blends but now it is almost impossible to find a 100% Bonarda in Argentina and wine merchants wear a pained expression when asked for it. We found only one example by Nieto Senetiner from Mendoza and had to pay dearly for it.

We tried Cabernet Franc and Merlot in restaurants but were not impressed with the examples we got.

We then attempted to find examples of the most widely planted (presumably ‘non-quality’ grapes of all; Criolla Grande, Criolla Chica and Cereza but no one admitted ever having heard of them.

Of the other varieties mentioned by Fielden; Barbera, Nebbiolo, (‘historically planted together with the Malbec and…often sold as such’), Tintorero Italinano (Grenache), Verdot (sic), Cinsaut and Lambrusco (actually Refosco), hardly a trace. A Gamay was advertised one one restaurant’s list but was out of stock.

Only about 1/3rd of Argentinian wine is classed as ‘fine wine’. Perhaps these varieties find their way into the cheap vin ordinaire we found in supermarkets and the bulk wine Argentina seems to sell in great quantity to Japan and other markets. On the subject of this vin ordinaire, we tasted a bottle of Bianchi’s ‘Nuestro Margaux’ which we bought for under 10 Pesos (£1.50).

It was not as bad as one might have thought: almost drinkable, but with an unusual taste. Maybe this was the fabled Criolla which is thought to have been the original wine brought over by the missionaries. Known as Pais in Chile, there is an example on sale from Artisan & Vine in London, Huasa, Clos Ouvert, Maule. At £23,
presumably not ordinaire. There were other doubtful wines on the lower shelves of supermarkets including another offering from Bianchi, this time a ‘Borgogna’ and a wine proudly stating that it had been made from 12 different grapes.

In the white wines the story was similar but Argentina’s speciality Torrontes (probably a cross between Muscat of Alexandria and our old friend Criolla and nothing to do with the Torrontes of Galicia, Spain) was not at all ubiquitous and in fact we can claim our first discovery with the examples grown in Salta in the world’s highest vineyards. These were nothing whatsoever like the cheap and not very cheerful examples of Torrontes to be found on British supermarket shelves. The Torrontes of Etchart who pioneered the variety in Cafayate, Salta was a complete and delicious surprise.
The wine is complex and bursting with flavour. We bought a 2008 Torrontes called San Pedro de Yacochuya from the Valles Calchaquies, Cafayate (13.5%), reported to be the world’s very highest vineyard bar none.
We found this at a shop called ‘Grand Cru’ on the Avenida Alvear in Buenos Aires. It was rather refined - a huge contrast with the glass of Torrontes Cinco Tierras we drank at the Hotel Faena one evening.This was positively funky, but very interesting for all that.

At Buenos Aires’ Jorge Newbery airport we found a $10 bottle of Petit Verdot by Trumpeter (a range produced by Rutini) which is reported to have been drunk with pleasure by its recipient in London.
However, practically none of the other varieties said to be planted (excepting Chardonnay and Sauvignon Blanc of course) were to be found in purezza: Pedro Gimenez (which is not Pedro Jimenez), Ugni Blanc, Semillon, Riesling, Pinot Gris Gewutztraminer although there does exist a Friulano which was not in stock at the Enoteca next to our hotel in the Avenida Saenz Pena, Buenos Aires or at ‘The Winery’ in the same street.

We chose one Malbec out of the many we sampled: Don David (13.9%) from Salta.

Not an expensive wine, it exuded class and finesse unlike so many other Malbecs. It comes from Cafayate, Salta – need one say more?

Uruguay


Our experience of Uruguay was much more limited but paradoxically more encouraging. We spent a day over the Rio de la Plata in the old Portuguese town of Colonia where we discovered a refreshing Sauvignon Blanc/Sauvignon Gris blend by Don Pascual,
the everyday wine range from Establacimento Juanico S.A. At Carrasco airport (Montevideo) there was a promotion for Uruguayan wines with several on tasting, supervised by a knowledgeable young woman. We tried a Tannat
and a blend called Monte Vide Eu both by Bodegas Bouza. The 100% Tannat (14.5%) was quite a revelation; infinitely better than any Uruguayan wine we had found in any UK supermarket and praised by Jancis Robinson. The blend (Tannat, Merlot and Tempranillo) was good but less interesting.
We bought a bottle of Tannat by Bodega Ariano which was slightly lower in alcohol.

From this preliminary skirmish with Uruguayan wines, we had the impression of a much more varied and interesting scene than that of Argentina or Brazil especially considering the size of the country (only half as big again as the UK) and population (3m). Their signature grape, Tannat appears to be capable of almost as great things as Malbec in Argentina and there is an interesting list of varieties grown including Folle Noire now named Vidiella in honour of Francisco Vidiella, one of the founders of the Uruguayan wine industry, who brought this excellent variety (used in Bellet, the wine of Nice) together with Gamay Blanc in the 1880s. Marsalan, Nebbiolo and Marsanne are also planted as well as all the usual suspects.

A footnote: on our Pluna flight to Rio de Janeiro, we bought a half bottle (yes, 375cl complete with a proper cork) of Uruguayan Merlot ($5) – better than the Argentinian Merlot we had had in a B.A. restaurant and possibly the best red wine we had ever been served in economy class.
It is made by Viñedos y Bodegas Filgueira and goes under the brand name Casa Filgueira.

Brazil



If Argentina is rather self-obsessed about its wines, Brazil is somewhat apologetic with Uruguay somewhere in the middle. It was really difficult to find ‘Nacionale’ wines in restaurants, supermarkets or wine merchants. We had arrived with the intention of finding more Ancelotta wines (see our Blog of 1,12,08) but came away with only the same bottle as we had been sent nearly a year ago. Don Laurindo is fine but we would have liked to have found ones by Caves Marson, Identitade, Casa Valduga, Casa Perini, Dal Pizzol. Vinicola Milantino and Laurentis.




One can see that Ancelotta is a Brazilian speciality now that it is all but impossible to find in its native Italy. Perhaps Brazil should have this variety as its calling card like Malbec in Argentina or Tannat in Uruguay? Goodness knows there is nothing else which merits this function. We found an excellent bottle of Touriga Nacional by Dal Pizzol;
much better than the Virginian Touriga Nacional we found in Washington DC (qv) but the rest was only so-so.

According to an interesting site, www.sitevinhobrasileiro.com.br, Brazil grows a very diverse range of grapes. We thought it of interest to name them here given our comments on the less than riveting choice of Brazilian wines. NB. Ancelotta (aka Ancelotti) is not even mentioned in Fielden:

White


Chardonnay
Flora
Gewutztraminer
Malvasia Bianca
Malvasia di Candia
Malvasia Prosecco
Moscatel
Moscato Giallo
Muscat Canelli
Riesling
Riesling Italico
Prosecco
Sauvignon Blanc
Silvaner
Trebbiano
Seibel
Semillon
Seyve Villard Blanc

Red

Alicante Bouschet
Ancelotta
Arinarnoa
Barbera
Bordo (aka York-Madeira)
Cabernet Franc
Cabernet Sauvignon
Carmenere
Concord
Gamay
Hebermont
Isabella
Lambrusco
Malbec
Marselan
Merlot
Montepulciano
Nebbiolo
Niagara
Perequita
Petit Verdot
Pinot Noir
Pinotage
Sangiovese
Seyve Villard noir
Syrah
Tannat
Tempranillo (aka Tinta Roriz)
Teroldego
Touriga Nacional
Trincadeira

PS. Nowhere in our travels in S. America did we see a screw cap!

Sunday, 1 November 2009

On the trail of the lonesome Virginia Nebbiolo

We can’t trace the idea that Nebbiolo thrives in Virginia and was likely to become the state’s signature wine but we read it somewhere. So on a trip to Washington DC we expected to pick up several examples and taste a range of others. Unfortunately we were thwarted – completely.

In fact it seems the only producer even growing the grape, Barboursville Vineyards, no longer produces it as a varietal but is for the moment at least, only using it in blends. Quite a disappointment.

So what is left in Virginia? Quite a lot actually. The state was the first to see an attempt at the cultivation of noble varieties when Thomas Jefferson in the 1770s sponsored an Italian Phillip Mazzei to produce wine at Monticello which, for our story is co-incidentally sited in the region of Piedmont. This failed as everyone knows but a wine industry has since sprung up in Virginia and some outstanding wineries have emerged. The signature grape might be Viognier rather than Nebbiolo and again, by coincidence, it transpires that Viognier and Nebbiolo are ampelographically cousins. On a recent visit to Barboursville vineyards Michael Broadbent found their 2004 Viognier Reserve to have the “quality and flavour to match - even exceed – Rhone’s finest Condrieu.”

Not having the time to go to any cellar doors in Virginia, we had to make do with DC’s wine shops and merchants. Here we found a distinct lack of enthusiasm for Virginia wines. Where they were to be found they were often on a small shelf together with a couple of New York State wines. Restaurant wine lists were even less inclined to offer the local wine. Wine buying opportunities in Washington are not anything exceptional. There are a few shops, each good in their separate ways. They included

Best Cellars
Calvert Woodley
Schneider’s of Capitol Hill

From these and others we assembled the following to take away;

Barboursville Virginia Barbera Reserve 2004 (13%)

Barboursville Virginia Cabernet Franc Reserve 2006 (13.5%)

White Hall Vineyards 2005 Monticello Touriga

White Hall Vineyards 2006 Monticello Petit Verdot
Linden Hardscrabble 2006 Virginia Chardonnay (13.3%)

This last, a rarity for Slotovino was bought as a present for a friend whose address is Hardscrabble Road, Hardscrabble being the epithet George Washington used for a particularly difficult march during the war of independence.

We will no doubt try these wines for Thanksgiving. Watch this space.

Concerning the wine merchants, we would just like to commend Best Cellars for the way their shop was laid out and how their wines were described on labels below each wine.
Firstly they organise their wines based on their taste and style, rather than grape type or place of origin. Then they give excellent information about the wine and list ‘5 reasons to buy this wine’ . Given that not even a Master of Wine could know exactly what is in any given bottle of wine, this seems an admirable way of solving the perennial problem of how to inform the customer. Only if the public is informed can they make decisions which might include something out of the ordinary.
http://www.bestcellars.com/aboutbc/system.cfm

Unfortunately Best Cellars was not the most visited shop we entered. That title could be applied to either of the other two establishments listed above. Their selection was larger and perhaps they were longer established but at Calvert Woodleywe were told they had nothing much in the way of rare grape varieties before perseverance and a second visit lead us to a 50/50 Corvina/Corvinone blend from the Veneto (Corvinone is a separate variety of which we had been completely unaware) called Costalago (Lake Garda), Rosso Veronese 2007 by Zeni (13.5%), ‘produced by the double fermentation technique’.
A Washington State Blaufränkisch from Shooting Star (13.5%),
an outfit dedicated to producing ‘a varied selection of interesting, eclectic and occasionally off-the-wall bottlings, all at a reasonable price.’

Schneiders had a particularly helpful staff and was thronged with buyers picking up ‘something for the weekend’.

And Nebbiolo? The last heard of it was the 2005 Barboursville version, rumoured to be available only from the Cellar Door; http://www.barboursvillewine.net/wine/nebbiolo-reserve-2005

Footnote. At Dulles Airport, the most amazing sight.Suddenly at 'C' Gates (between C3 and C4, an appraition, where it was least expected, called 'Vino Volo'.
Nothing less than a wine bar cum restaurant with 'Flights of wine' (geddit?) including, for $10 Franquier County Three Fox Cabernet Franc Alouette 2007, Green Co. Gadino Cellars Viognier 2006, Roanoke Co. Amrhein Wine cellars Syrah/Cabernet Melange 2006. What a great alternative to Burger King! Unfortunately our flight was departing before they opened but we could see that the food areas looked serious ('from $5'). This great institution exists also at

BWI
DTW
JFK
PHL
SMF
SAT
and EWR.

We will plan our next trip to the US accordingly.

Saturday, 31 October 2009

Torn' a Venezia

In September 2009 we wrote about ‘Al canton del vin’ in Castello, Venice. In early October we made a new and lengthier visit to this most interesting wine shop selling Vino Sfuso as well as some very interesting wine in bottle.

Effortlessly, the diversity on offer is huge: perhaps more than in any shop anywhere in the world not actually trying to offer as large a range of grape varieties as possible. Consider first the Vini Sfusi on offer:

Reds

Cabernet Franc
Cabernet Sauvignon
Incrocio Manzoni Rosso
Malbec
Merlot
Pino Rosso (Pinot Nero)
Raboso

Whites

Chardonnay
Incrocio Manzoni Bianco
Pinot Bianco
Prosecco Spento
Ramandolo (Verduzzo Dorato)
Sauvignon Bianco
Tocai (sic)
Verduzzo

We bought a litre each of Cabernet Franc, Malbec and Raboso which were amazing for their freshness given the fact it was toward the end of the season with the new wine about to arrive soon.

On the shelves we found a 100% Gropello called ‘Maim’ by Costaripa (12.5%)

Gropello is a pseudonym for Rossignola which is a variety permissible in Bardolino and Valpolicella as well as a Brescia equivalent of those wines called Valtinesi Rosso. On tasting (27.12.09) this turned out to be a surprisingly meaty, savoury and chewy wine for its low alcoholic content. Certainly something to beef up the Corvina, Rondinella etc. of Bardolini etc. We also bought a 'Malbeck' by Musarango from the Veneto Orientale (12%).

The helpful Monica gave us a tutorial between serving regulars who came in to fill their empty mineral water bottles and a chat on the way home from work. These regulars were mostly elderly with decided tastes for one or other of the Vini Sfusi and endless gossip despite others waiting to be served.

Monica didn’t stint on telling us all about the business of selling wine on draft in Venice. She said there were now only about 3 more such shops in the city. The season begins with Torbolino which is still-fermenting grape juice, presumably something like ‘Federweisse’ in Hessen. This can be from various of the above grapes: Prosecco and Cabernet Sauvignon have been mentioned.

On the shelves was another rarity; bottles without any label. These turned out to be sweet Fragolino which at 4% was too low in alcohol to be sold as wine. Monica gave us tastes of this and various other Vini Sfusi, something other proprietors are very loath to do. We told her about what we had heard concerning the difficulties of selling draft wine in the UK. The problem there seems to be that such wine, if cheap enough would attract people who would drink it in the shop or on the pavement and get drunk. Monica said that never happened in Venice.

As a footnote to our visit to ‘Al Canton del Vino’ Castello 3156 (Salizada San Francesco) we would just mention the leaflet offering courses by the Federazione Italiana Sommelier Albergatori Ristoranti (F.I.S.A.R.) dedicato a tutte le persone che desiderano conoscere, capire e degustare I vini. Maybe on our next visit?

On to the Enoteca Vino e…vini (3566 di Castello, Salizada del Pignater. Tel/Fax 041 521 0184, enoteca@vinoevini.it). They sell a much smaller selection of Vino Sfuso, excusing themselves by saying they only sell the good stuff. On this occasion we found a true rarity, a bottle of Osoleta in purezza. The only mention of this grape we had seen so far was as a component of Masi’s ‘Toar’, a blend of Corvina (75%) and Osoleta (25%). Our bottle was called “Oz” 2006 and is made by Azienda Agricola Zyme of S. Pietro in Cariano, Verona and weighs in at 13.5%.

We were assured this was a luscious wine. We look forward to checking this assertion. The price was almost as high as our expectations.

We also bought a 100% Canaiolo (Canaiolo Provenzano by Azienda Agricola Marciano, Toscana (Siena)2006, 13%) which is almost as difficult to find
and a bottle of our runner-up to the 2008/9 Slotovino Best Red award, Antico Terren Ottavi’s 100% Vernaccia Nera “Pianetta in Cagnore” from Le Marche which we had previously found in Rome.

Like Venice’s artistic treasures, the wine of the Veneto seems to hold an inexhaustible number of secrets waiting to be discovered. Today one of the British Saturday wine columnists writes

‘Wine: The great unknown
Avoid the star names of the grape world, and you may well stumble across a bargain’


And the grapes mentioned? Zibbibo, Syrah, Grenache, Chenin, Colombard and Primitivo. If these are the great unknown, what chance is there for Osoleta?

Wednesday, 7 October 2009

Fraser Jamieson of Corney and Barrow

In a talk at the Royal Society of Medecine Fraser Jamieson made two interesting statements. The first, that when we buy a bottle of French wine we are not buying grape varieties but a slice of land (terroir). And the other point was made by his choice of wines, all from Burgundy. How can it be explained why the same grapes made in the same way produce wines as different as Chablis and St. Aubin in such a small geographical area?

Good points, well made but it would be interesting to know how much microclimates and clones contribute and surely the vinification and cellaring can't be identical? Apart from anything else, those who make Chablis know they are making Chablis and those who make St. Aubin have a different goal in sight. Fraser Jamieson has worked in Burgundy so is certainly aware of all the variables.

Red Champenois at Rogano's.

Rogano's restaurant in Glasgow have Chalons en Champagne - Coteaux Champenois Cumieres Rouge, Joseph Perrier NV AT £57.50 on the winelist. They explained to us they are changing the list but might have a bottle left for anyone that ambitious to try a still red wine (presumably Pinot Noir) from Champagne. This is a true rarity getting very few mentions even on the internet. If anyone has any experience of this wine, we'd be very interested to know more.

Wednesday, 16 September 2009

Our trawl this month

On our September trawl across Europe, more discoveries! Will they ever end?

Paris, 2/3.9.09

Cavistes have depleted stocks at this time of year but Julien (Rue Charlot) tempted us with two unauthorised organic Loire red blends; La Guerrerie (Cot/Gamay), 12.5%
La Grapperie “Le Gravot” (Pineau d’aunis, Gamay, Cot) Touraine NV 13%

and an modern organic German Riesling he swore was dry as a bone:
Tesch Riesling Kabinett ‘unplugged’ 2007 11.5% (Nahe).


Edinburgh 5/6.9.09

Needing emergency sustainance, we dived into "Giuliano's" restaurant opposite the Playhouse on Leith Walk near the junction with Broughton Street.
The walls are covered with enlarged photos of vineyards, cellars and barrels etc., so we were interested to see the wine list. It was clear that this had been assembled by someone who was not only passionate about wine but knew a great deal about it too. Not difficult to deduce - where else in the UK can one find Mancini's "Il Blu"? Readers of Slotovino will know we mentioned this wine back in June 2008. In fact it is not available here and had to be imported. Congratulating the padrone, we became embroiled in the most pleasant wine discussion imaginable, for it was he Giuliano, partner in 3 Edinburgh restaurants bearing his name and extreme wine enthusiast. We traded information in rapid fire and it emerged that Giuliano is also an Edinburgh vigneron garagiste. No, he doesn't grow his grapes in Scotland but buys them from pallets imported by the UK Italian community. He told us in detail how he really does make his private wine in his garage. He says the results are variable depending on the grapes (he has to take whatever is available). He immediately invited us back to his house to taste his wine. We would have been delighted to take him up on this but the International Festival called. He gave us his card. Next time we are in Edinburgh we will definitely be in contact; rarely can you find such a passion for wine. His Melanzane Parmigiana was great too.

While researching wine merchants in Glasgow we kept finding interesting shops in Edinburgh so on this visit we took a look at Raeburns Fine Wines of 21/23 Comely Bank Road where we found a delicious Tocco Magliocco (or Maglioppo) from L'Acino (Campagnia)

13.5% - similar to Gaglioppo but a different grape altogether and certainly one to remember.
We also bought a Bonarda; Castello di Luzzano, Carlino, Oltrepo Pavese 2004 13.5% which was not as delicious as we had hoped following good experiences with Italian (as opposed to Argentinian) Bonarda.
Comely Bank Road morphs into Raeburn Place. At 30b is to be found Edinburgh Wine Merchants (an offshoot of Cambridge Wine Merchants) with a small but eclectic selection and on the same side, other shops selling wine. We also made a return visit to Villeneuve Wines, 49a Broughton St. where we missed the Slovenian wines which had bee a feature last time. We had to bypass our favourite Valvona and Crolla in Leith Walk due to the tight schedule. Edinburgh is well served and can claim to have an all year round Wine Festival which Glasgow cannot as far as we can tell.

Lisbon 10.9.09

We made straight for Vini Portugal following our wonderful experience at the Porto branch in June. On tasting, thanks to the gracious and well-informed Marta Galamba was Alentejo, Dao and Bairrada/Beiras. The big discovery was Mouras de Arraiolos Reserva Branco 2008, 13% (made with 100% Antao Vaz) from Bairrada.

It seems that indiginous Portuguese white grapes are every bit as good as the red ones. So now we can count Antao Vaz together with Encruzado, Loueiro and Trajadura. Our samples of Dao containing a majority of Afrocheiro were disappointing
but the widely available Grao Vasco Dao 2006 (13%?) made from Jaen, Touriga Nacional and Touriga Roriz was nicely soft and rounded with a hint of violets and deep ruby colour. Note: must try a 100% Jaen one day.

Then on the advice of Francisco Figueiredo of Colares Arenae (see our visit to Colares in October 2008) we made for El Corte Ingles where he had told us we could find wines of Colares.
What he didn't say was that his own wines were not among them. How typically altruistic. We were determined to buy bottles which had not been standing on a shelf for years on end and these looked in good nick with robust shoulder levels; Colares Chitas 2003, Visconde de Salreu 1994, Viuva Jose Gomes da Silva & Filhos, 1997, ALL 11%. We found a Fundacao Oriente 2004 at Adivinho, Travessa do Almada 24, but others did not stock Colares even though it is one of Lisbon's local wines so it was heartening to find it at the Hipercor of El Corte Ingles even if it was not in evidence in the 'Club del Gourmet' there.

Our business took us to Belem where in a nice shop with a reasonable selection, 'Coisas do arco do vinho' in the Belem Cultural Centre
we found the Mouras de Arraiolos Reserva Branco 2008 (13%) we had tasted at Vini Portugal
and the Carm Douro white we had so enjoyed in Porto.
The Enoteca do Belem is still closed.

Amsterdam, 11.9.09


In search of Dutch wine, we were sent to Gall & Gall near the Royal Palace but they had sold out. They normally stock wines by Hoeve Nekum (Riesling, Auxerrois, Rivaner and Pinot Noir) http://www.hoevenekum.nl/. Needless to say no Dutch wines are available at Schiphol despite all other kinds of Dutch produce being prominent. Could English wine mean more to the British than Dutch wine in the Netherlands? Could Dutch wine be less good?